Discussing ableism in the workplace

What is ableism? Why should it be a key topic in any workplace diversity and inclusion program? In this week’s episode, leaders of Lincoln’s internal resource group for people with disabilities join us for an open discussion on this trending topic. Mike Kellar, vice president of recruiting, and Arlene Hendricks, director of life underwriting, share their observations and stories and also touch upon how companies can identify and avoid the negative effects of ableism.

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Transcript

Karen Batson: 0:00

Hi again, everyone. This is Karen Batson marketing manager for leave and disability at Lincoln Financial Group. In this episode, we discuss ableism and the important part, it plays in your diversity and inclusion program. Today's guests head up Lincoln's internal resource group for people with disabilities, and we try and define ableism and what it means for the workplace. Listen in as Mike Kellar, vice president of recruiting and Arlene Hendricks, director of life underwriting shared their insights on this trending topic. Welcome to the Lincoln absence advisor podcast. Glad to have you guys here. So today I want to talk about ableism. It's come up a few times in various conversation, but in particular talk about what it means for the workplace. And I'm really excited to have you both On here because of your roles in Lincoln's business resource group for people with disabilities. So before we jump into the topic, could you describe for our listeners what this group is and what they're responsible for?

Arlene Hendricks: 1:04

Sure! So Karen, our people with disabilities BRG was established back in 2013. So we've really been an active group here at Lincoln for the last seven years. So Mike and I have had the pleasure of working together in co-leading this group for a couple of years now, along with Nancy Smith and Michelle Wertz who are executive sponsors. So our vision is really that we would provide thought leadership to really enhance Lincoln's solutions and strategies for addressing complex changes or challenges, for people with disabilities. So we advocate for change by giving them a voice to the community, as well as relentlessly promoting integration, alliances and opportunities for inclusion.`So our roadmap of recommendations will really equip Lincoln to effectively recruit, retain, and accommodate people with disabilities. Since its inception, we're proud to say that we've actually grown our membership by about 400%, always looking for new members. And we typically work in kind of a three bucket approach of workplace, marketplace, and community. So our accomplishments over the years have included things like enhancing training across the organization, partnering with resources in different communities where Lincoln is based for volunteer activities, as well as engaging in recruiting efforts to build our pool of qualified candidates for open positions here at Lincoln. I think the one thing That's really important is lastly, we're continuing to strive to really reinforce our culture of diversity and inclusion by really trying to create an environment where employees are comfortable, self identifying and reporting their disability, particularly when it comes to requesting accommodations where you're going to be critical to their success here at Lincoln.

Karen Batson: 3:22

Fantastic. Now the members, they span all sorts of different roles here at Lincoln, right? It's it's different business units, different experiences that kind of make up that BRG group.

Arlene Hendricks: 3:34

That is correct. So we have people from, like you said, our different business units, our different Lincoln locations, and each person on the BRG has really joined the BRG based off of their personal experience. So for some of them, it may be because of their own disability or it may be because they have a family member with a disability and they've seen some of the struggles and challenges that their family member has faced. So the nice thing is, is that we have a very passionate and, um, advocating group who really does want to continue to work in this arena and continue to make a difference across the organization.

Karen Batson: 4:18

So what better topic for us to talk about than ableism, I feel like that's truly connected to what you guys are doing across the board as a concept. So let's jump in. Um, I'm going to read this one. So Merriam Webster dictionary defines ableism as discrimination or prejudice against individuals with disabilities. And I'm thinking it's also important to note that this could be unconscious or conscious by any individual. How would you describe ableism?

Mike Kellar: 4:46

I would say, you know, it's like any type of discrimination is where we're treating somebody differently simply because we either see something visibly about that person or we hear something about that person and ultimately we're treating them differently than we are everybody else, but we're also making them feel excluded from the general population. And I think, I think people with disabilities experience it on fairly regular basis. And to your point, it could be conscious or unconscious. But I think as soon as somebody who has a visible disability walks into a room, people immediately put their judgment on that person based on their lense of the world. And if they hear about something from somebody, as far as their disability, same thing, they kind of bucket them into everybody that they know that might have that disability. They must all be the same. And it's interesting, as we rolled out the autism to work program, we worked with a third party nonprofit and their kind of their tagline is if you've met one person with autism, you've only met one person with autism. And so we try to really drive that message home through the BRG.

Arlene Hendricks: 5:44

And I would agree with Mike in terms of it being a form of discrimination. And I think sometimes too, it takes the role of thinking that somebody can't do something, but I think, you know, within the workplace, it's important to remember that it can be apparent both in opportunities provided as well as opportunities and not provided. So is it that somebody is only offered a position because the perception or the prejudice or the bias is that that's all they are capable of doing, but it also can mean that maybe somebody with a known disability may not have the opportunity to lead a project or be considered for job advancement or promotion, which I think is really important.

Karen Batson: 6:30

You guys talked about the topics specifically ableism in the BRG group?

Mike Kellar: 6:35

We have most recently, I would say it's been within the umbrella of mental health and all the stigmas that are attached to that. And kind of a theme of that work stream is, is to remove the stigma of mental health so that employees can come to work as their true selves and be fully accepted. But we have talked about it and just in general as well, some of the challenges or difficulties that our employees have simply because they're judged before people really know who they are, what their capabilities are.

Arlene Hendricks: 7:02

You know, I think the mission and the vision of our BRG this type of, um, you know, this discussion about ableism comes up over and over again in various different areas. You know, most recently, as Mike said with the mental health, but we've talked about it in the past with other types of disabilities and that we're really believers that people with those disabilities can contribute at the same level. And quite frankly, I would say that in some situations, depending on the job, I have sometimes found that people with disabilities actually have a very different thinking outside of the box, more creative problem solving ability because of some of the challenges that they've had to face in their own lives.

Karen Batson: 7:50

That's a great point. One of my next question for you guys is why you think ableism is kind of a trending topic this year. And this year is definitely abnormal year for many of us, mental health has been a huge topic. It's kind of want to get your perspective as to why the heightened attention.

Arlene Hendricks: 8:07

And I would have to agree with you, you know, this year in general has been nothing like we've ever experienced as a nation from the pandemic. It's certainly shed more light on some of those invisible disabilities, like anxiety and depression in dealing with the pandemic, dealing with work life balance, um, you know, disrupting of normal routines. But I also think too that there's, you know, outside of disability and that type of prejudice, there has been a greater focus across the nation on prejudice in general. I think there's higher level of awareness on differences between people and focusing on really trying to see past those differences and looking at people as just that. another person that's just like me, regardless of how we may be different. And I think a lot of times success within an organization is really built on that diversity and inclusion. And because we've got a proven track record of doing that. And then as you mentioned, with the higher incidents of people with invisible disabilities, we're also seeing that people who maybe never experienced some of those symptoms in the past are experiencing those now. And it does change the dynamic or how people may be looking at some of those invisible disabilities.

Mike Kellar: 10:02

I agree with what Arlene is saying, and it certainly has been an unusual year. When you think about the pandemic, the recession, the amount of unemployment that's happening in the country. And then we're in an election year where that's just fraught with ugliness when you watch the continual spin of the commercials on whatever platform that you're looking at. And I think all those things have really triggered people who already have mental health issues, but it's also creating mental health issues for people who haven't experienced that in the past. And this idea of stress induced anxiety and depression is sort of the front page news right now and depression, in and of itself for people under 60 is becoming one of the most dominant disabilities that's being recorded. And so I think all those things are making it very relevant. I think the extension of that is also all the people who are now caregivers of people who have disabilities and who are now working and living and trying to take care of people all in the same physical space. And so all those things are kind of making it front page news this year, more so than probably any year in our lifetimes

Karen Batson: 12:06

Now for our listeners, maybe we should spend a little bit of time on defining ableism, and what it looks like today. You know, we did the, the dictionary definition, but do you have examples of what ableism looks like?

Arlene Hendricks: 12:18

So I think, you know, there are some things where, you know, for example, not being compliant with ADA requirements, I think as we've looked into a more technology based world, that there are companies out there that are struggling with compliance, especially with things like customer facing websites, where there are some requirements that I know here at Lincoln, we're doing some work on that. I would imagine that there are many other companies across the country that are doing something similar. You know, interestingly, this actually this year was the 30 year anniversary of the ADA. So I think that, you know, that's something where it's a continually changing environment and companies are going to continue to have to kind of keep a focus on this and a spotlight on it in order to make sure that they're compliant with all the areas that they need to be, whether it's accessibility or whether it's with technology tools.

Karen Batson: 13:21

Now what are some often overlooked accessibility measures that companies could take to be more accommodating to those with disabilities?

Mike Kellar: 13:29

Couple of things that come to mind for me is one is now that we are all working much more in a virtual world, just assistivetechnology in general, many companies are really far behind when it comes to technology. And then when you add that extra layer of making things accessible for people with disabilities, it's oftentimes overlooked. Another area that we have seen is that over the past couple of years, we have been renovating all of our buildings to make them much more collaborative, open space and modernized. And certainly accessibility is at the forefront of those plans. The challenging part is that when the buildings under construction and the people are still working in the building that little gap of time, often times they forget that there's someone in a wheelchair or somebody that needs special accommodations to get into the building that they've lost that access in the interim period while the buildings under construction, all the intentions are good, but there's just that forgetfulness in between.

Arlene Hendricks: 14:22

And I was gonna just add to Mike's comment about the accessibility into the buildings. I think the other thing that we need to remember and think about as employers is that in a normal work environment where people are back in those buildings, it's really thinking about if there's construction going on, or there's something different about the building, even in terms of an emergency, you know, what a different accommodation, or is there a different procedure that we need to think about communicating to our employees that have a disability in order to ensure that if they do need to evacuate the building, then they understand what the new accommodation is, what that new procedure is, so that we're really ensuring their safety in the process.

Karen Batson: 15:14

Such a good point, that there's multiple situations and environments. It's just not the normal day that you have to be considering as an employer to make sure everyone's covered. The other thing I was thinking about and thinking about this question and thinking about, you know, the conversation we just had and what's trending this year is also keeping an eye on the changing environment. What people might have as struggles may change. You know, this year is a prime example, as we just discussed with mental health, that might change some of the things and accommodations that you need to provide or be looking at as a business. And it's just good to be continuing to move with the times.

Mike Kellar: 15:51

Yeah, I think, you know, it's something that we learned a lot through the neuro diversity program, the autism to work program. W hen you think about overlooked accessibility measures, what we learned a lot from our third party consultant, as well as from the participants in the autism to work program are things like noise levels. Lighting smells just distraction from movement around the person. A nd, and again, you think about all the effort, Lincoln has gone into creating open space a nd c ollaborative work teams. Sometimes that can be very challenging for someone who, who is autistic or somebody who has ADD or ADHD, just that constant buzz around them is very distracting to be able to get their work done. And I don't think, again, I don't think most people were thinking about that when t hey d ecided to take all the walls down and make t hem much more open space and things like that. But I think even some of the feedback we've gotten from employees is that when we do move everybody home, folks who may or may not have ever claimed that they had a disability have commented that they're able to stay much more focused, much more, much more attention to the work that they're actually doing, because they don't have all that distraction all around them.

Arlene Hendricks: 16:57

And I think I would just add one other comment that sometimes when you're looking at those accommodations or what kind of support you may need to put in place for an employee, sometimes I think we tend to overthink that and not necessarily bring it back down to the basics. So for, um, you know, a good example of that is here at Lincoln we've. Um, over the last several years have started to implement the use of standing desks. And I think, you know, initially when those were rolled out, you know, a lot of it was really to promote health within our organization and for in place, but funding like a standing desk can be so beneficial for somebody with attention deficit disorder, where it's really hard for them you know, you think about all of those people that as they were growing up were probably told in school, just sit in your desk and sit still, but a standing desk could greatly change the work environment and the dynamic for them that would make them much more successful.

Karen Batson: 18:02

No, absolutely. Now Let's jump down to kind of some everyday things there, there seems to be a lot of microaggressions every day, acts of ableism that maybe we should look at differently, such as using a handicap stall in a bathroom or not being aware of perfume in a highly public or scent free environment like you mentioned, um, what are some other everyday examples you've witnessed or heard about that maybe we should think twice about as a whole group?

Arlene Hendricks: 18:33

So Karen, I think any of these can really be a challenge. And when I think about ableism, a lot of it, you know, those that are related to visible disabilities are much easier to identify and address. However, it really doesn't take away the importance of addressing these biases for both visible and invisible disabilities. So in regards to the physical disabilities, I think I would say that one of the most important things that employees can do is ask and communicate. So, you know, I think for people with physical disabilities, a lot of times some of their frustration, m aybe s omebody assuming that they need help or want assistance just because of their disability. So it really comes down to education and awareness. I'd like to just share a really quick story. So my background is as a physical therapist. So when we were in school, as part of our training, we were required to spend some time in the community, navigating life in a wheelchair, on crutches with a walker and a cane. And we did it for a couple of reasons. First, we did it to better understand the challenges that some of our patients would be facing, but it also was really to help us understand accessibility issues and needs. But I have to say that during those times when we were out in the community navigating differently than we normally would, the manner in which people really interacted with being significantly changed, and it would range anywhere from providing over assistance to avoidance. So, you know, I think a lot of times people assumed I needed help with everything, or they would just avoid the situation, eliminate eye contact because they really were uncomfortable and didn't know what to do. So I think for us personally, it goes back to awareness of our personal bias. Now you mentioned the word stigma. And one of the things that our BRG hosted last week was a really good webinar about mental health. And one of the things that they brought up, which for me was a huge sticking point. And a takeaway was really kind of trying to remove the word stigma associated with disabilities, because the more you talk about it as a stigma, the more those disabilities become stigmatized. So I thought that that was a really great point coming out and definitely something that I thought about and learned out of our webinar last week.

Karen Batson: 21:06

Did you have anything to add to that Mke?

Mike Kellar: 21:09

The things that we have a good friend of ours who has cerebral palsy and some days, she leverages a wheelchair some days, she leverages a walker, but you know, we always of course get upset when people take the parking spot, that's flagged as a disability, a parking spot. But what oftentimes happens is that even when people don't take that parking spot, they parked too close to it. And so when someone pulls in with a van that requires the side door to come down with the lift, if someone parks too close to you, either you can't get out of your van or worse, you're, you're outside your van, you can't get back. Um, and so that's, that's one that again, I think people just don't think about what that other person's challenged with and then how long that person's waiting for you to come back to your car. So you can simply get back into their car. When I think about microaggressions that are, are more, maybe subtle or more verbal, the same person has, you know, and I've been with her when this has happened, is that people assume that she has cognitive challenges as well as physical challenges. And she only has physical challenges. So they immediately assume that she's not smart, that she's not verbal. People will come up to her and start talking to her like she's a child and she has a doctorate degree. And so it's funny how people will just automatically make these assumptions because they see something that they've now put into a bucket of all people must be like this, and immediately start to start to treat that person that way. The other comments that I think people with disabilities have received that are certainly very, very offensive is that, you know, Oh, you seem so normal to me, or I can never be you, you know, you're, you've, you've accomplished so much by, with a life that has so much challenges and all those things are, I think they're intended to be positive, but in reality, they, they're very offensive and can be very hurtful to the person, especially when they're set in an open group of people, then everyone's looking at you and staring at you and it makes you feel very uncomfortable as well. So I think some of those things are challenging. I will say more if I put on my, my work hat thinking about recruiting and HR, you know, one of the challenges that people have had is that people will make assumptions about them. That aren't true, right? So they'll be in the interview process and they may actually say, can you lift the box that's 50 pounds, even though they're applying for a job, that's sitting at a desk and they're never going to have to lift 50 pounds. So sometimes those things come up as well. And you have to question, I do you ask all your candidates that or are you asking me that because I'm in a wheelchair.

Arlene Hendricks: 23:22

And I guess the other thing I would add is I think this area, especially, you know, like the handicap parking permit that Mike was talking about, I think sometimes that gets me, this whole concept of ableism could get a little bit more challenging to you because when we, especially when you talk about the invisible disabilities, I think the inherent thought is that if you see somebody pulling Into a handicapped parking spot and they don't look like they have a physical disability, that they don't need that handicap parking permit, I think that becomes even more of a challenge for all of us, because just because they don't necessarily look like they need that spot. I think a lot of people will just make the assumption that they don't and it becomes harder to really differentiate. Do, do they need the spot or is there some invisible disability? I may not be aware of that it is a valid reason for them to be parking there.

Karen Batson: 24:21

Ultimately, you don't know what everyone's going through. And that's the key point between all of your stories, right. And when thinking about ableism, taking a step back and being aware of what you don't know seems to be a really important element. I know when I was doing some research for this episode, one of the things that I didn't realize were some of the sayings that are day to day, that could be considered ableism, like things like saying that is lame, or you're crazy, all can be connected to a disability and can contribute to ableism. So I think your stories are really good examples of taking a step back and realizing what we do day to day that may affect that and may affect change. If we are thinking about it now from a workplace perspective, are there other areas that ableism takes shape?

Mike Kellar: 25:07

Yeah, it does. It comes up probably too frequently. And I think it's, um, if I boil it all down and I guess in fairness to everybody, it's this feeling of discomfort. When I think about protected groups of people, I do think that people with disabilities make the general population more uncomfortable than any other protected group. And I think a big part of that is that they don't know what to do. They don't know what the social norms are. They don't know what the protocol is. To Arlene's earlier point someone shows up and they look like they need help getting into the building when indeed they don't need help getting into the building. We just automatically make these assumptions. And sometimes they're in the spirit of something positive and helpfulness, and sometimes they're just all about avoidance altogether and we do see that happen. And so when we think about candidates who are coming in for interviews, we have a very robust recruitment strategy to attract veterans in to Lincoln. And of course, many of those folks are coming back from places where they've been injured and they may have a visible or an invisible disability as a result of serving our country. And it makes people uncomfortable. They don't know necessarily how to handle the conversation or how to handle the interaction. And so sometimes the easy answer is just not to interview the person or just not to engage them any further in the process. And then certainly the wrong answer. But I think it's a natural tendency to do that sometimes.

Karen Batson: 26:31

With the interview process. Have you seen any changes in 2020 that helps the situation given so much more virtual interviewing?

Mike Kellar: 26:40

Yeah, certainly. So we we've done a lot of training as with managers and we talk about it in the kickoff strategy discussions as well, but since the workforce has become remote, um, every moves a lot of the physical, visible type of things that people might pick up on. And so I do think that the remote workforce has been a huge help to people with disabilities. Number one, uh, I sort of like the show, the voice, right? You don't ever see the person, you just hear their voice over the telephone or through a recording. Um, and so there's no prejudgment on capabilities based on a visual assessment of somebody. And the other thing I think is that it has afforded people in many more locations to come to work for Lincoln that are not necessarily in a key city. And I think that's great for Lincoln as a business because it has given us, you know, untapped pools of people, if you want the best it person in Silicon Valley, before we, we have to convince that person to move from one of our key cities like Greensboro or Fort Wayne. Now that's not necessarily the case. They can work from wherever they are and why that's relevant and important for people with disabilities is because oftentimes that's where their support system is. And so we have seen quite a bit of a shift from that perspective. And I think there's many people that we probably have hired that may have a disability that nobody's even aware of yet, because I haven't asked for an accommodation and nobody has physically seen that person.

Karen Batson: 27:56

Throughout this whole conversation we've really touched upon elements of that invisible disability, from your perspective, should our approach be different when confronting ableism when it's a visible disability versus when it's an invisible disability?

Arlene Hendricks: 28:10

I mean, personally, I think, no, I think our goal should be really to reduce these biases and prejudice regardless of what the condition is. And I think where the difference lies is really in the training related to these different types of disabilities. You know, as Mike mentioned, sometimes it's difficult for people or managers to understand how to interact with somebody or, you know, best practices. And a lot of that can be addressed from a training perspective. So to me, I think that's where the difference is, but I don't necessarily think that our focus or our approach should be any different depending on what the disability is that the employee may have.

Mike Kellar: 28:53

Yeah. I agree with Arlene. I think it's, I think there's no difference. I think it's, it's the same and it's just as hurtful either way. I think that, you know, bringing awareness to it, the reason why we partnered with Cornell for the training program for managers and the toolkit for managers is because they had solid modules to deal with people with visible disabilities, as well as to deal with employees with invisible disabilities. And those things are everything from mental health diagnoses and straight through addiction issues as well. And so again, you know, sometimes someone is put into a bucket of people with a stereotype based on having been seen. And other times they're put into that stereotype based on the label that's put on them. And so, you know, if someone declares that they do have an addiction or they've taken time away from work to go into rehab, people immediately assign these judgments or values to that person that may or may not be true. And I think that that's oftentimes a huge challenge for people that have invisible disabilities. And that's why they have a fear of ever disclosing that. Because as soon as you say, you have something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or something like that, these are all scary words for people. And they immediately think, well, I can't have that person working in my department that might hurt somebody, even though that's not really true. I think it's all, I think that both of those, whether it's invisible or visible, I think the ableism issues should be dealt with the same.

Arlene Hendricks: 30:12

And I would add that, you know, I think especially with the invisible disabilities, unfortunately, a lot of what happens in the world and the news media feed into those stereotypes and much more on the invisible disabilities than the visible ones. So it definitely makes those disabilities and those people, those people with those disabilities, it makes it a little bit more challenging for them, which is why I don't necessarily feel like we should be focusing any differently, depending on what the type of disability is.

Karen Batson: 30:48

So final question for you both. How can we challenge ableism in the workplace?

Mike Kellar: 30:52

I think you call it out when you see it. I think proactively educate people and you try to normalize the conversation so that it's not a big, scary thing to Arlene's earlier point, you remove the stigma of some of the things that are attached to different disabilities and a good way of doing that as Arlene pointed out, is just simply by not using the word stigma, but it is more about just, you know, engaging in conversations. When I think about the mental health work stream that we have within the BRG, a lot of that is really talking about, you know, the more we talk about these things, the more we say that these are things that our employees are challenged with, it becomes more normal, right? And when you think about just the staggering numbers of people who are reporting at least anxiety or depression drink during this time period on top of the people who have a diagnosis on a regular basis. And the reality is that it is more normal than abnormal to have many of these different challenges. Um, and so I think normalizing it, I think that when you're in a meeting and you see somebody do something or say something that's inappropriate that you call them out on that and not necessarily in front of everybody in the meeting, but you pull them aside afterwards and say, Hey, I don't know if you realize this, but what you just said to that person was very hurtful. And here's why I think education is a big piece of it.

Arlene Hendricks: 31:57

I would definitely agree, you know, that education raising the awareness. But you know, and really walking the talk. It's not enough to really just talk about it, but we need to be able to put actions to work each and every day, we all need to be challenged to be aware of those potential biases and those prejudices, and really to think outside the box and recognize when it's happening, because sometimes it's easy to recognize it's happening. And other times it's much more subtle and really empowering managers and employees to do something about it.

Karen Batson: 32:33

Well, thank you both. I am so glad you were able to join us today. This was a fantastic conversation. Thanks To everyone listening. Thank you for joining us. We will continue to cover topics that help employers and their employees navigate through this new environment. So be sure to subscribe to Lincoln Absence Adviser on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclosures: 32:55

The information contained in this podcast is for general use and is not a substitute for the advice of an attorney or your human resource professional. Lincoln Financial Group is the marketing name for Lincoln national corporation and its affiliates. Affiliates are separately responsible for their own financial and contractual obligations.