Is maternity leave enough

Maternity leave is such a common reason to be absent from work, but have you ever asked if what your company provides is truly enough to help the mothers among your employees prepare for and recover from childbirth, bond with their new baby while adapting to a new normal and successfully come back to work?

In this episode of Lincoln Absence Advisor, we went straight to the source –mothers who are back at work – and asked for their thoughts. Listen in as Emily Igrejas, disability product manager, Susan Lawson, manager of voice of the customer, and Sara Kilbride, national sales executive, discuss their own experiences with maternity leave, including what was going through their minds before, during and after leave, what they needed the most, and how employers can help retain talented mothers in the workplace.

AM-LAAML-AUD001   02/24  Z01   LCN-6420688-022224
©2024 Lincoln National Corporation. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Karen Batson: 0:00

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Lincoln Absence Advisor podcast. I'm Karen Batson marketing manager at Lincoln Financial Group. In today's episode we ask the question is maternity leave enough? I'm joined by some of my colleagues here, Sara Kilbride, Emily Igrejas and Susan Lawson. They're going to introduce themselves here in a minute, but I wanted to give you a summary of what we talked about. We dove into before, during and after baby from a mom's perspective, um, how complex that can be the stressors that it can add and really how one size doesn't really fit all, which really leads to some figuring out for our new moms and our second moms and our third moms. But we also dive into how employers can provide support for this very important employee and ultimately really retain talent from our mothers. So let's dive in and take a listen to this conversation. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us for this podcast episode.

Emily Igrejas: 1:02

Hi, great to be here.

Sara Kilbride: 1:04

Thank you for having us.

Karen Batson: 1:06

All the excitement to talk about maternity leave. I can feel it coming through. I'm thinking let's start with some introductions. If we can explain kind of your role with group benefits and then a little bit about your maternity leave experience. That would be great. Emily, do you want to start?

Emily Igrejas: 1:25

Sure, absolutely. Thanks for having me. So I'm Emily Igrejas. I'm a senior product manager here at Lincoln Financial. So part of that entails managing a portfolio of our disability products. And so that's a really good intersection with our topic today with maternity. So a very common reason for short term disability is childbirth of course. My own personal experience. Uh, I have two kids. I first went out on maternity back in 2018, and my latest was last year during the pandemic. So very different experience, having a baby during, during COVID times.

Karen Batson: 2:05

Sara, how about you?

Sara Kilbride: 2:06

I'm Sara Kilbride, I'm a national account executive. So as Emily, I have a lot of interaction with some of our larger national customers in terms of administering their leaves, their disability benefits. So maternity is a very hot topic amongst all customers, especially now when you have States rolling out their own benefits, which oftentimes are a lot longer than internal benefits, which you're trying to now see some companies make up for that. I have two kids, I have a five-year-old and a one-year-old. I had my first one in 2015, and my youngest was born in 2019. So looking forward to discussing this further with everyone.

Karen Batson: 2:46

Awesome. How about you, Susan?

Susan Lawson: 2:48

So I'm Susan Lawson and I manage the group benefits voice of the customer program. So I'm studying the surveys that our claimants fill out after they have filed a claim for short-term long-term disability. So again, maternity leave particularly a reason for short-term disability so we see that come through in our claimant satisfaction survey results. And I am five days back in the office now. Yes, my daughter is, um, she'll be 12 weeks on Sunday.

Karen Batson: 3:23

Congratulations. And welcome back. We've missed you.

Susan Lawson: 3:26

Thank you.

Karen Batson: 3:27

Well, I wanted to bring you guys together because we've had some interesting conversations on the podcast recently, really heightened and accelerated from last year around, obviously parental leave family care and caregiving needs. And of course, how it affects women in the workplace as well, new moms, moms with multiple kids to take care of in different types of work environments. So I thought it'd be really great to bring the three of you together from different perspectives and different experiences with maternity leave to kind of talk about is maternity, leave enough, should employers be looking beyond that maternity leave component and how is that changing for employers as, as we grow, we learned from the previous years. So one of the things I want to start with was what were you guys thinking when you were about to go on maternity leave, say for the first time and what your expectations were as well?

Sara Kilbride: 4:21

So I think that you can never really be prepared, right? Everyone's story is unique and everyone has different, different lead up to actually going out. I guess I'll start with my son came early. My first came early. Um, I went into labor at 33 weeks and I ended up not having him until 35 weeks, but he was in the NICU after that for almost three weeks. And so as soon as I had him, my maternity leave started ticking. So at that time it was 12 weeks and three of those, he spent in the NICU. I didn't have him home. I didn't, you know, we didn't get to bond. He was not with me for those first three weeks. So for me, I felt as though, you know, the panic of having a preemie, having a newborn, trying to find the daycare for him. You know, luckily we had daycare lined up, but now your timeline is all off, right? Because you give them an estimated date when you think you're going to be putting them into daycare. And then I ended up delivering five weeks early. So it was like, okay, I have to go back to work at a certain date. Are we going to have somebody to be able to watch him? How was that going to work? So it wasn't like, I thought it was going to be it. Wasn't like, okay, I'm going to have my baby on my due date, which literally never happens. Right. Never, ever, ever happens. So we planned for it to happen on that date and then it never does. So you're constantly scrambling to try to figure out if you've set up care, you know, will the daycare be able to take them, what that landscape is g oing t o kind of look like, how are we going to navigate that now? Especially in my case, he came early.

Emily Igrejas: 5:47

I think Sara highlights a really good point about almost like a pitfall of these programs. And, you know, I think level setting, not like not all employees have access to paid maternity, which I think is a really, you know, we say maternity leave, but oftentimes the pay component comes from short-term disability for your own recovery from childbirth. And then you may get supplemental benefits from company paid type of benefit that says, Hey, you've given birth. We're going to give you X amount of weeks. And, you know, and then there, there are some States that tack on top of it. But so I think the common kind of pitfall there is they, they lump all of these reasons together. And so in Sara's case like that clock for her started ticking a lot sooner than she anticipated. And, you know, she's not at home with a baby during that time, right. There's one she's recovering from an early childbirth, which is, you know, scary enough. But then you also have this fresh little baby who was in the NICU and, and you're not home bonding. And it's like, you're losing that time as each day passes, which that's really tough. Like, I, I was fortunate in my experience, like I did not have that. And I think about that often where, you know, things could change very quickly ahead of time. You never know when you're going to go into labor and part of leading up to the maternity, I think, thankfully for me, you know, I live and breathe this stuff for, for work. So I almost knew what to expect from the process. If everything goes according to how I think, right? You can only plan so much, but I knew what to expect in terms of, I knew what I had for time, for duration of benefits and pay and all of that, which is helpful, but you can only plan so much. And I think that's the frustrating part of this is you, there are so many variables can, that, that can change the duration and then you're left kind of scrambling. And to Sara's point, like daycare is a huge part of that. Like put aside the big part, which I think is like the emotional aspect of, you know, there's one, there's the physical and all of that recovery, but it's also incredibly important to be spending time with your newborn baby. And so to lose out on some of that time on the backend is like a whole other topic. Right. Um, but like the daycare is another piece of it. Like in order for you to successfully go back to work, you're then saying, someone is now taking care of this baby. And daycare is very like, you know, you have to plan that so far in advance and, um, it's yeah. It's definitely a struggle to balance all that.

Susan Lawson: 8:03

I think what Emily said about the clock is ticking, right? Like as soon as your baby is born, at least for me, I don't think I anticipated that as I was planning to go out on leave. Like I was really concerned with leaving my team in a good spot, making sure they had what they needed, making sure I had done what I needed to. I had a completely different birth story than Emily and Sara. I had to be induced. It didn't go the way we planned. I ended up having to have a C-section. So all of my information to Lincoln had to change. In terms of what my leave was going to look like. And as soon as you have your baby in my head, my clock was ticking before I came back to work. So like the whole time, you're just counting down your days with her. Um, in my experience so far,

Emily Igrejas: 8:49

I think that's a good way, like, we're all using the same, like we're all saying the clock is ticking. Right. And I think even describing that way, I think gives just the general sort of way we feel about it. It's like, it's like, you know, each minute, hour, day that passes, it's like tick, tick, tick, it's just counting down. And I think that just goes to show that, you know, to your earlier point question, Karen, like kicking this off, like is maternity, leave enough is what time you have available enough. And I think there's such a wide spectrum of what people get in terms of paid and on leave time off. But I think probably the resounding answer from everyone is no, it's not enough. I mean, of course it's never enough time. And you have to, you have to try to figure out how you can make it work with what you, with what you're given. Um, but just that overall umbrella of like the clock is ticking and it's like, you're losing time each day. It just goes to show that there's, I think there's that feeling that it's, it's never quite enough.

Sara Kilbride: 9:41

Well, and it's not like you're enjoying each day, you're sitting there. So each as each day goes by, you're like I'm one day closer to having to go back to work. And I think that that is, I think it's in the forefront of everybody's mind. I think it just naturally is.

Susan Lawson: 9:53

Even if you want to go back to work, right. Even if you're ready, it's still, there's still that push and pull on it.

Emily Igrejas: 10:00

Yeah. Yeah. Cause you want to be everything to everyone. Right. I think that's part of it that goes into this is like, you want to be a good colleague and, and teammate to your folks that you've left while you were you're out on leave. But also you're now a parent and you know, you're trying to balance that and there's that I think that guilty umbrella of like, I'm outsourcing my parenting to daycare or whoever is taking care of your kid and, you know, there's, that, there's that bit, you know, like I definitely like my second time around, I was looking forward to being back to work, which sounds bad in a way, but it was almost like that's my only break. And I know that sounds tough, but my experience with my second was, you know, um, COVID like our daycare shut down. So my older daughter was home with us every day and we were working, I worked up until I delivered. And so that alone, like really threw off how I was planning to spend the last few months of my pregnancy. And then you know, we're home, we're all home. My husband's at home too, trying to work from home and he teaches, so he's on camera. So we also have to try to be quiet and then we've got the baby. And then we, it was just like craziness. So my, in my mind, it was almost like coming back to work is going to be like a slight break from that. But then like, as soon as you're back, you're like, Oh, you know, the other feelings of guilt and everything sort of set in. And it's just, you know, I think it's a constant trying to find like just the balance yeah. Balancing act for sure.

Sara Kilbride: 11:20

Sometimes you're damned if you do damned if you don't. Right. So, you know, you feel guilty when you go out, because now you're leaving a group of people with tasked with handling all of your work. You know, whether you should not feel guilty, you know, it remains to be seen, but like, you know, I felt like a sense of guilt. Like now I'm giving all of my extra work to my team who already has their own work to do. And then to your point, Emily, as soon as I go back to work, well, then now I'm giving like childcare to somebody that, you know, making somebody else take care of your you're being constantly pulled in multiple directions. And as much as you try to balance the are always tipping one Way.

Emily Igrejas: 11:55

Yeah. Yeah. There's no right. Perfect solution. I remember when I was first, you know, getting ready to go out with my first and I will say like, I have very limited experience with children, probably showing how my kids turn out, but like my daughter, my first born, like she was the first baby's diaper I ever changed. So I will say like I had limited exposure there. And so I remember like, sort of getting a sense of panic and talking to a colleague whose children are grown and college age. And, um, I remember saying to her, I was like, I don't, you know, I don't know how I'm going to do this. Like, how am I going to throw a kid into just my normal day to day and like figure this all out. And I remember her just saying something like, you know, you'll figure it out. Like, cause that's what everyone does. That's what you have to do. You're not the first woman to have a kid and go back to work and juggle both. She's like many have done it before. You many will do it after you. And she's like, so you just keep going and you figure it out as you go. And as simple as that sounds, I remember it just having a good impact on me thinking like, yeah, I can't, you can't plan for everything. And I think you learn that, you know, as you deliver and go into labor, right, it's your first clue on that? It's your first reminder to say like, Hey, like you can only plan so much and you know, I always have to remind myself, like he can't stress out about the things that you can't plan for. Like, just try to do your best and keep it going

Karen Batson: 13:15

From someone who hasn't gone on maternity leave and listening to you guys that brings the other aspect of the stress level. I mean, even saying it's a ticking clock and dealing with the balancing and struggling with wanting to go back and not going back. There's an element of how do you cope with I'm going to use stress. I mean, it can be different levels of mental health. Sure. Um, and also comes in with your maternity leave process.

Emily Igrejas: 13:39

Yeah. I think it's a really good point. Like I, and this is coming from someone again, who's like, who's educated on the process of navigating even like figuring out what you get for benefits, what the expectation is in terms of how you get those benefits, how you approve this, or what documentation's needed, you know, I could live and breathe that every day. And even for someone who is well-informed on the process, it is stressful and it is a lot to navigate. And so I always look back at that and think a lot of people, their first time out on disability, it's their first experience with all of that. Like people have a hard time understanding what disability is for. I think if you asked many mothers that they're surprised to learn that a lot of their payment comes in the form of their short term disability insurance. So the fact that so many are going through this and navigating this, not knowing that process, I'm, I am sure. And I've heard from other mothers, like it's a very overwhelming experience, especially because our earlier conversation, it never goes quite as planned. And so when something goes into that and then throws like everything you've planned off the, you know, the track you have to figure out, okay, what do I do now? Like, do I have to call someone who do I have to call, or can I just do it, you know, online? Or, you know, what is the process or will they just figure it out from my doctor? You know, trying to figure That all all out. And it's just, it's a lot to, I think, for people to, to deal with. So I think there's definitely a need to make this as simple. Yeah. Simple and easy as possible. And I handle in my job my day to day, I would say, that's the one thing I see commonly like that I'm confronted with is some of the issues or opportunities we have. It comes down to just better understanding, right? Or a lack of understanding of what short-term disability is like, what are the different leaves? What do they all mean? And you know, the more we can simplify it for people, I think the better and they're going to have a better experience and then it's less stress for them. And they can spend their time away from work, focusing on what matters.

Sara Kilbride: 15:31

Well and it's less stress on them. And it's, you know, less questions coming into the employer as well, because, you know, we're in the process of creating a tool that I think will help with this. Right. You know, cause there are so many leaves and there is not just one tool that'll be like, okay, my short-term disability is X amount of weeks. My FMLA is unpaid for this amount of weeks. I live in Massachusetts. So I get this X amount of time under the Massachusetts paid family leave, you know, we're, we're in the process of creating something that be able to kind of hopefully show, you know, show that, but we do eat and breathe this, but for somebody to Emily's point that does not, is not easy. They would have no idea and it would be incredibly overwhelming. And you know, there's a lot of people that just get so overwhelmed with it, they just throw their hands up and go, I'm just not going to do this. You know, I've got a newborn at home. I've got more important things to focus my time on than trying to figure out this, leave landscape here.

Susan Lawson: 16:19

And I felt like I was so scared to like do something wrong and miss, if I tick the wrong box or say the wrong, you know, getting my dates exactly. Right. All of those types of things to that point of like the ticking clock, like to make sure I got what it was...

Emily Igrejas: 16:36

Yeah. It's a lot, if I mess something up and then I don't get everything I'm supposed to or entitled to get.

Karen Batson: 16:41

I'm curious cause I don't think it'll ever be perfect cause everyone has different situations as we explained in the beginning. But from your views, are there things that employers should be considering in that kind of pre leave element when someone announces they're pregnant and they're going to go on maternity leave, are there things from that point on that should be considered even outside of like a claims leave process?

Sara Kilbride: 17:03

It's a good point. And I do think a lot of our employers actually try to make this as seamless as possible for their employees. You know, I know my customers alone, a lot of them have, you know, certain tools for maternity. You're going out on leave, what to do, what to expect, but, and I'm guilty of this as well, you know, it's a lot of written information that people may tend not to read. Again, I can assure you, I didn't read a single leave letter that came in to me while I was on maternity leave, which is really bad because I do this every day, but I did not read one. Um, and I do, I honestly do think employers try to make it as easy as possible. It's just, I think it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming.

Emily Igrejas: 17:47

It is. I think the tough thing is know to Sara's point, like I think people do appreciate the complexity and I think a lot of our employers do create a lot of written materials, whether it's guides or checklists or things to keep top of mind. I think what is hard like Karen to your point, it's always going to be confusing and complex for people to navigate this. And I think unfortunately that is just sort of the by-product of the system that we're in or the landscape. Like there is no federally mandated paid leave for example, but there is a federally mandated unpaid leave. And then, you know, it's up to companies that they offer short-term disability or not that's, you know, your paid component and, or right. cause it can vary, paid parental component. And then you've got States on top of that, that may mandate specific benefits that in and of itself, like the starting point, the foundation is just too confusing for people to navigate. And so it's unfortunate that we have to make the best of what we have and it is hard because there is no one size fits all solution, right? Especially for larger employers that have employees across the country and multiple States, you have a different answer for employee that comes to you and says, I'm going out on maternity. What do I need to know versus employee B in a different state coming to you with the same exact question. And so I think it is hard, but I think making the resources available and making employees know the resources that are available is, is a step in the right direction. But I think sometimes it's, there's just so much, and this is just one topic of many, it's hard to find information and then you just, you're going so fast. And then it's like, Oh, I have to go out. And I didn't have time to read the 10 page checklist or I didn't even know there was a checklist out there. You know, the people fall into both camps.

Susan Lawson: 19:25

I like before I read every single thing and then once she was born, I was like reported her birth. And didn't even think about that. Like I tried to prepare myself, but then when she was here, like you're saying, forget it.

Emily Igrejas: 19:39

Forget it! I just got a brand new baby and there's too much going on. Yeah. Yeah. Completely.

Sara Kilbride: 19:45

I think a lot of it too, is that, you know, we all worked up until the date we delivered. So you're working a full-time job, you know, trying to get everything else ready for a baby. And then on top of that have to try to figure out like this leave. Like there's just, sometimes there's just not enough time in the day when you're trying to prepare yourself to go out and many different aspects.

Emily Igrejas: 20:04

It's such a good point. Yeah.

Sara Kilbride: 20:06

And then the last thing, and again, I'm probably just speaking for me, but the last thing I wanted to do was to like read through all of this and figure it out. And I knew what I had to do because I'm in it every single day. So for somebody like, and I try to wear that hat and I'm like, for somebody that isn't in this day, like this it's a lot. Yeah. It can definitely, you know, definitely be lot, especially too, if you have an employer who we may be administer, their short-term disability and paid parental, but somebody at the state is actually administering the state benefits. So now these employees have to go to all sorts of different places.

Emily Igrejas: 20:38

Who do I go to, for what? Yeah. It's like, how does, how is someone expected to keep that straight?

Sara Kilbride: 20:42

Like, you know, who, especially if some of these States that are rolling out their newer programs, right. Just coming off, you know, and it's like, okay, so I have to go to Lincoln for this. I have to go to the state for that. You know, where, how do I keep all this straight?

Emily Igrejas: 20:54

You're not always getting the same answer or the right answer for that matter. And it's like, you don't know how to make sense of the information you're getting.

Sara Kilbride: 21:01

And the employers help as much as they possibly can. But you know it's the employees too going, getting to your point Emily, getting different answers from different, you know different people. It's just, it's, it's tough.

Karen Batson: 21:12

Now, switching gears, maybe a little bit kind of now you're coming back from leave, you're preparing to come back to work or you make the decision not to go back to work, whatever your situation is when you view that kind of what's going through your mind and what your expectations are and where you might need support that maybe isn't being considered.

Susan Lawson: 21:32

I think for me, like five days in figuring it out in.

Karen Batson: 21:37

Fresh perspective, love it.

Susan Lawson: 21:40

Yeah. I was excited to come back to work was ready to come back to work. I have only been at Lincoln for 10 months now, so I only got short term disability. And how to use some vacation time just to add a few more weeks on. So coming back there was this like she's so little, but um, for me, like I was still ready to come back to work. I was ready to rejoin my team, figure out what had been going on while I was out. But it's the day-to-day life things that I feel like would go such a long way. Like here's a voucher for a laundry service here's meal delivery. Like some of those just like basic keep the wheels on the bus things that I don't think I had really accounted for how I was going to manage that once I came back.

Sara Kilbride: 22:25

It's a lot and I will say, so I worked from home before this, but for most of the people now working from home because of the pandemic that we're in, it provides not a better work-life balance, but at least for me, I was able the ability for me to work from home right after I had put my second son back in daycare was huge because I felt like at least in between meetings, I could go throw a load of laundry in, I could unload the dishwasher. I could make sure I washed bottles, so I didn't have to do it right when he got home, you know, a large part of this, which I think is talked about a lot, is that for working families who have their children in daycare, you feel like when you get out of work, you go pick them up. It's between four and five o'clock at night, you have maybe an hour, an hour and a half with them before they go down for bed. So you're really, you go from spending every single day with them to getting an hour an hour and a half, which is not a lot of time. It's hard as the grand scheme of things, you know, it's not easy. And if, if during that time, you know, you have to make sure you're, you know, again, washing bottles, packing bags. I think that that is where the flexibility and employers to allow people to work from home also is a huge, huge help with some of that. Just because hopefully most days you can get a couple minutes in to be able to do some of that stuff to take away from what you have to do. You know, maybe when the baby's home or when the baby is asleep, you know, for me, I have a four year age gap between the two of my kids. So when the second one was born, we had this newborn at home, but we also had an almost five-year-old his whole world was rocked essentially. Right. So we're now we're trying to juggle our time between a newborn, a five-year-old trying to kind of figure out all of this and then, Oh, wait, let's go to daycare for a month and then we're gonna throw you into a pandemic here. So, and then everyone's home, which, you know, a lot is to be said for us, you know, people managing kids at home with the pandemic, there, there are certain things that I will never regret from it. You know, I got to see his first steps where if he was at daycare, I would not have gotten to witness those because we had that extra time home with him. But it was hard.

Emily Igrejas: 24:18

I think that the, the interesting part of the COVID environment is twofold. Like to the earlier points you guys have both made. I think there are a lot of silver linings that I like to call them in the COVID world of everyone being forced to be virtual, because it does make it easier to juggle that constant work-life balance. And I, you know, the same things you guys say, like when you're home, it's just easier to, like, you can throw a load of laundry and you can marinate some meat for dinner. Like you can just do things that take minutes, but because you're there and you're able to multitask, or you can take a 10 minute break standing up and getting away from your computer and use that time to do something like that. Instead of like, conversely for me, if I were to be going into the office, you know, spending a three hour commute during the day, you know, an hour and a half year, an hour and a half there, like that time becomes so precious when you have, you know, one, two or more kids and you're just trying to juggle and figure that all out. And so I think that is definitely an added benefit. The other thing that I think is really great about working from home or having that flexibility after having a kid is if you're nursing, if you're breastfeeding your baby, like, oh my goodness, the convenience that comes with being able to work from home, I will say like, you know, having two kids, two completely different experiences with that, we don't have to go down that rabbit hole, right? That's another whole topic in and of itself. Like we could just talk for hours. I will say, like having my first, the months leading up to it, I started to realize like I needed to stop learning about what was happening during pregnancy and figure out what to do once the baby was a big part of my learning journey. Like I think people forget that there's a lot that you have to learn and figure out. And, and there's a lot that you can't, again, just not being able to predict how things go. It's a job to maintain a milk supply. And it's a job to keep that up. Especially once you return to work, if you have your kid in daycare and you have to constantly be doing that during the day, it's convenient for me to be able to do that from home and not have to get up, go to a secure place where I can't necessarily work from, you know, lose productivity, have to do all of that, make sure I remember to bring my equipment into the office. And there's just like a whole thing that goes with it. I've got my equipment, I've got my refrigerator. Like I'm not in front of people. I can easily work with my laptop. Like I can do that. And I don't even have to talk about it with people, which is another thing. Like, you know, if you're a private person, you don't want to like announce like, Hey, I'm getting up to go pump.

Sara Kilbride: 26:44

Go to the mother's room.

Emily Igrejas: 26:46

And I do think that is something that employers should be doing a good job of making sure that information is readily accessible. There are a lot of laws that protect mothers and their right to have a private, separate space so that, you know, you're not in like a bathroom stall trying to figure that out on your own. And I know that a lot of employers still even have challenges complying with that. That's a whole other discussion, right there.

Susan Lawson: 27:11

Right. Having a mother's room isn't like just having a mother's room isn't enough. Right? Like you can't just put it there and expect people know how to get into it.

Sara Kilbride: 27:20

You have to sign off on it or make time on it, you know, just to make sure. And then you, you know, depending on, you could have a lot of mothers at the same time that all need that room. So it's like, what are you going to do? And not to mention, you know, to Emily's point your first day back, like, you know, you're going to hope and you're going to wish that everything you did works, but you know, honestly I have the time does everything doesn't.

Emily Igrejas: 27:40

Where I was, I'm trying to use a mother's room at, uh, I was traveling and I was at a different place, which just is a nightmare in of itself. Let me just say like, Oh my goodness. And you do everything you can to your point, like, you've done what you've you're supposed to do. You've scheduled it. You've booked it. You're ready to go. You kind of discreetly get up, you know, leave your meeting and just kind of like, go do your thing. And then it's like, someone's in the room. And it's like, if someone's in the room, they're using it. Right. I'm not going to be like, knock, knock it out of there. But then it's like, what do you do? And then it's like, okay,

Sara Kilbride: 28:10

Just wait around. Yep.

Emily Igrejas: 28:11

Yeah. And You kind of have to just figure it out.

Sara Kilbride: 28:15

It is. And there's some things that you don't know until you're thrown into a situation. You're like, wow. Like I have no idea what to do here. Like I have no idea what this is going to look like. So it's just, it's a lot.

Emily Igrejas: 28:24

And it's tough because like certain people like you again, like not everyone knows their rights around that and I am one that I do, and I know I have right to privacy. So when the answer, when I went around, because I'm in a building, I don't know. And someone was like, Oh, well, you know, there's a supply closet. People have their luggage in there and you know, there's no lock. I can try to make sure no one walks by or anything. You know, imagine someone hearing that and not knowing like, Oh, is this my only option available to me? And I mean, that is just, that's a lot for somebody to try to figure out. And it just goes to show like, it's something that I don't think is intentional by any means. But a lot of people, it's just not title nine and they don't realize, and I never, I certainly, before children, no idea had absolutely no idea, you know, what was involved in it?

Sara Kilbride: 29:11

Well, it's an education piece, right? It's definitely a miss in the education because, you know, I had, until you have a child, you don't have any idea to your point. You know, you have no idea what your rights are. You have no idea on any of it, really. So it's just kind of one of those, you know, and I will say again, that our employers do a good job at making sure that when a woman comes back, they know what the, like, this is what you have, that this is what you can do. But again, it's that back to the whole reading thing, which, I, don't do, I'm guessing I am not alone in that. And again, the whole juggling of newborn dropping them off at daycare, I probably did not read this piece of information that I should have. And then you just kind of get overwhelmed and like flustered. And then it's just, it is not, not a recipe for a good first day back at work.

Karen Batson: 29:56

So to kind of give you a last question, as we're coming up on time, here is we have a lot of employers and brokers listening to the podcast. What would you say was like the most important thing we might have hinted on in today's conversation?

Emily Igrejas: 30:09

Communication, I think is one thing I think people need to better. You know, if you think about what your employee population is and what their needs might be, cause we've talked about a lot, right? People who are in it, you know, working in person onsite, people who are working from home, people who might have the ability to do both people who work in different States. There are so many variables at play here. Try to think about the different, I think segments of somebody's leave right. Leading up to it, you know, months before, immediately before, during coming back to work. And like, is there a way to get that information out at timely intervals to people because you know, you shouldn't, it shouldn't be your first day back at work. And someone's like, here read this 10 page packet, because again, you're back at work, you've got to go, like, things need to happen that day. So is there a better way to sort of intersect and give people the support they need? And that reminds me, I'm going to start to ramble a little bit here and I'm sure others have other thoughts, but one other thing that we really didn't talk about today, which could be a podcast in and of itself, you know, one of the other things I do on my day to day as part of a disability product manager is we also manage our EAP, our employee assistance program. And I would just give like a total shout out to that program. Those standardly come with long-term disability. So most employers that are offering that people have access to the EAP. And this is one of those things that is an underutilized value add service, which can be incredibly helpful. And it's helpful in the sense of like the big, common usages is actual counseling sessions. And that can be huge with just anyone who's trying to juggle being a new parent working full time. That's not even to mention people who deal with postpartum depression, which is extremely common. There's a lot of information before you go out on leave, but it's almost like once you're back, it's like you're back at work, figure it out like everyone else, but there are so many changes that come with somebody, having a child and trying to juggle all of that, not just for yourself, but also, you know, figuring out things for your kids. There are so many services the EAP provides in terms of work life. Like you can say, I'm looking for daycare. Can you find all the daycares in my neighborhood and call them and check for availability? They'll do that for you through your EAP. So there's a lot that I think people don't realize.

Susan Lawson: 32:21

I learned something today.

Emily Igrejas: 32:23

There's a lot of stuff there that's free, it's completely free and available. And so, you know, I'm always hoping that we can, we can advertise or highlight that more because it's such a good resource for employees and there's support that can be provided before, during and after somebody's leave that can hopefully make it a little bit easier for them.

Sara Kilbride: 32:43

Yeah. And the postpartum is just such a, such a big part of it, you know, aside from the activities and the dropping the bit, but you're, you know, the mental health that comes with it all, you know, the stress and getting back into, you know, we all kind of work in a fast paced environment. So getting back into that, it's just that, you know, that mental check that wellbeing, it's just, it's, it's I think a lot. And to your point, Emily, I think a lot of employers are now very hyper-focused on this because they realize, okay, this is definitely an area of opportunity. Like, how do we get in, how do we make sure check in? Everyone's doing kind of okay. And I think that that is a huge, huge part, and it'll set them up for success. And it's just one thing that you can do as an employer to go kind of above and beyond for your employees.

Emily Igrejas: 33:20

It's really a win-win because if you're stressed out and you're you know, really having a hard time from a mental health perspective, or even if you're just trying to juggle the day to day, that's a lot, that's distracting you, that's taking you away from work. You're less productive. So it's, it is a win for employers. And I am glad to your point, it is definitely top of mind. And I think COVID has helped push this, which is great, right? Because I think the, the, the ultimate is like, if employers can learn that you can proactively address some of this stuff and you are offering services already out there, like EAP that can come in and help provide some of that support to employees, then they're going to be more productive at work.

Sara Kilbride: 34:00

I think, you know, people are now seeking more help for mental health too. And I think that, that, that's huge. I think we live, I think that we are thankfully living in a day and age where the stigma around that has been lifted a lot. And I think that that is going to be in it, you know, it's through the great work of employers for advocating for their employees, for giving them these resources. But for also people speaking out and realizing, Hey, you know, it happens like this is not, you know, it was nothing to be ashamed about. You should talk about it. Here's the resources for you. You know, you are not alone, you are definitely not alone. And here's how we can help you. You know? And I think that that is a huge part of it just, you know, focus on overall mental health and the stigma being lifted.

Karen Batson: 34:38

Any other parting thoughts for our audience?

Sara Kilbride: 34:42

So I guess this goes back to it. I was saying about my lack of reading here. Um, you know to your original last question is that I think also finding creative ways to relay this information, right. I always like to, I always like to caution people like again, because I don't read, um, caution people that the more you put in writing, the less likely they are to read. So if you're going to give me a packet, that's 20 pages long, there is a buddy 0% chance. I'm going to go, go through and read that. But, you know, getting creative, like, you know, put the information on a podcast so I could listen to it while I'm pumping, feeding, changing, like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going back to work. I've got this great podcast out here from my employer. Let me listen to that and have it, tell me what I have to do when I get back to work. Or even before I go out of work, you know, something like get the information out there. And other ways a lot are utilizing videos. Now, you know, we've got maternity videos that show like this is your maternity process. And I think that that probably tends to resonate more. At least with myself, it resonates more when I can listen to it or, or see it as opposed to having to sit there and read it and then reread it. You know, things tend to sit with me better once somebody is just, we're having a conversation like this, as opposed to me having to take the time to focus. So I think that getting creative in the ways that the information is out there in a way that's not overwhelming, but makes sense to them.

Emily Igrejas: 35:57

I was going to say, it almost sounds like you're also saying like use simple language. We overcomplicate, like, you know, I'm guilty of it because we're in it. And this is part of our job, but it's like, why do we make this so complicated for people? And again, some of that's out of our control because of the landscape we're dealing with, right? But it is on us. And it's on, you know, our employer and broker partners to do a good job, a service to our impacted employees and say, how can we take this really complicated situation and type of scenario and simplifying it, using words and language everyone can understand, instead of using these crazy disability terminology, things that even people in the know who live and breathe it every day, have to scratch their head and say, wait a second what are we talking about? We should really try to think about, like, to Sara's point the different mediums that we can use for communication, but also the words that we choose to use. Like let's simplify this and make it easy to understand.

Sara Kilbride: 36:53

Well, and I think that, you know, take our disability hats off and our leave hats off because we're in it, think about somebody who has never had do this. Like if you were them, what would you want to know? How would you want to know it? You gotta take us all kind of out of it. Cause we're in that landscape,

Emily Igrejas: 37:06

We're our own worst enemy here,

Sara Kilbride: 37:08

We sure are. You look at it from their perspective or, you know, pull employees in. Don't survey them. Don't send them a survey monkey, pull them into your office when they come back and be like, okay, tell me, talk to me. How did this work? What did this look like? What worked well for you? You know, have that conversation with them because you know, again, you're just coming back. You don't want to, you ask a couple questions on a survey. I don't think you're really getting to the root cause for some of this. Right. Because they'll just answer a lot of people just kind of do the survey to kind of get it done, but like have a conversation, pull a couple of people in who have just come back from maternity or paternity leave, you know, because we've got the debt. You know, the other aspect of this too is right. The dads as well, which again, to Emily, we could have another podcast about[inaudible] or not even dads, you know, just the other non birthing parent. Right. So, you know, I think that you just sit them down and be like, okay, tell me what worked here. Like what didn't work, what could we have done better? How do we help future mothers or partners go out,

Emily Igrejas: 38:03

Don't be afraid to have those candid conversations? I think that's an excellent point. Like what we're doing today. I, you know, I've gone on leave twice and I will say not many people have asked about my own experience. You know, you're thankful for the benefits, but there's still an opportunity to optimize the experience. And I think it's finding that balance and the appropriate medium to solicit that feedback because that, you know, voice of the customer, that experience is what can help really propel us into getting this into a good spot in terms of experience and simplifying it. But you need to get feedback and be thoughtful about how you solicit it. Because I think there's that balance of people are don't necessarily want to speak out or you know, to use the word criticize because they're g oing t o say, okay, well then, you know, I'm going to come off as sound and really, you know, ungrateful a nd appreciative or u ngrateful for t he, all t his leave time. And, u h, you know, everything that I experienced and that's, that's not it at all.

Susan Lawson: 38:57

Just the gesture of checking in, right? Like first couple of weeks, like even your direct manager, you know, skip level, like just, Hey, we're so glad you're back. How's it going? Tell me the truth.

Sara Kilbride: 39:11

How are you doing?

Susan Lawson: 39:13

Really, even that alone goes a long way.

Emily Igrejas: 39:15

Yeah. It can be weird to be back to work. And like no one says anything and you're just kinda like, I've been gone three months.

Susan Lawson: 39:24

I have a whole person! I had a baby!

Karen Batson: 39:26

On the other hand Susan, you could be invited to a podcast and asked!

Sara Kilbride: 39:28

I think a lot of times too, when we do come back to work, people always naturally ask and I do it how the baby is, but very rarely do they ask, how are you? Like, how are you as like...baby aside, like, how are you doing? Because oftentimes, I mean, it is, it's great. You've had this baby, it's joyous. People want to know how the baby is doing. But I think oftentimes it's just a simple question. Like, how are you doing? You know, not the baby, how are you? And it just, it goes a long way. It speaks volumes.

Emily Igrejas: 39:58

To everyone's point. It goes a long way because it also shows that sort of back and forth, like you're in a relationship with your employer and there's a lot you want to give and put into your work and you want to feel appreciated and grateful and happy. People are happy you're back and contributing. And you know, if you're not necessarily feeling that you might not be wanting to put everything you can into your work as well. Um, so it's that balance. Yeah.

Sara Kilbride: 40:21

It makes you want to come back and it makes you want to not just come back to come back, but it makes you want to come back and work and be there exactly. Because they've given you such a great experience. That's a given, right. They've given you such a great experience that you want to just, you know, give it back to them and tell them, and also, you know, your experience helps others. Right? So talk about it. Right. So I think that that's the other part is that people just need to talk you to talk about my experience. Talk about your experience at all. Like you have three of us on this call right now who will all had very three very different types of leave situations. So, you know, I think that that is where just have open dialogues, have conversations. Don't be afraid to ask. I think that it's just, you just have to talk. Yeah.

Karen Batson: 41:03

Well, I thank you all for talking today and coming to the podcast. I hope you'll come back again. Cause it sounds like I have a whole season worth of episode topics. Thank you all very much.

Sara Kilbride: 41:19

You're welcome.

Susan Lawson: 41:19

Thanks Karen

Emily Igrejas: 41:20

Thank you.

Sara Kilbride: 41:21

This was great.

Karen Batson: 41:22

Thank you everyone for listening and thank you to Emily, Sara and Susan for joining me today, we hope you liked today's episode and will tell us by rating us sharing the episodes or subscribing to Lincoln Absence Adviser on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclosures: 41:37

The information contained in this podcast is for general use and is not a substitute for the advice of an attorney or your human resource professional. Lincoln Financial Group is the marketing name for Lincoln National Corporation and its affiliates. Affiliates are separately responsible for their own financial and contractual obligations.