The trying needs of eldercare

When you look at reasons people take leave from the workplace, do you consider eldercare and all the complexities this includes? In this episode of Lincoln Absence Advisor, Lincoln’s Joanne Archer, VP of product solutions, Michelle Curtis, product consultant for Lincoln’s life product, and Julie Frick, claims manager for group benefits, share their different experiences with eldercare.

They focus on the many needs employees may be juggling when caring for an elder family member and how those needs can shift so quickly throughout the aging process. Their stories showcase not only day-to-day needs, but also the many emotions your employees may be experiencing. Listen in to hear what employers can do to help employees that may be experiencing similar responsibilities.

© 2021 Lincoln National Corporation. All rights reserved. LCN-3751474-090821

Transcript

Karen Batson: 0:00

After a quick summer hiatus, Lincoln Absence Advisor podcast is back. I'm Karen Batson marketing manager at Lincoln Financial Group. And today's episode we cover eldercare a single word but a very big topic, I'm joined by three colleagues who share not only their insights from a group benefits perspective, but also their experience and their stories. It was an episode filled with a lot of information and a lot of emotion. And I'm really excited for you all to listen to the various perspective, especially as we look at ways to support employees in the workplace. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Hi, la dies, thank you so much for joining the podcast today.

Joanne Archer: 0:46

Hi, Karen.

Michelle Curtis: 0:47

Hey, Karen. Thank you for having us.

Julie Frick: 0:49

Thank you.

Karen Batson: 0:50

We've chatted in preparation for this Convo. So I'm really excited because all three of you just bring such great insights to elder care and your own experiences and your work. So easy question first. Let's go around the table. And if you can introduce yourself and kind of how you're connected to the elder care topic, who would like to go first?

Joanne Archer: 1:12

I'll jump in. I'm Joanne Archer. I'm the Vice President for Product Solutions management here at Lincoln Financial. And thanks again for having me here to talk about something that is near and dear to me. My father was a very healthy man, in his late 60s and an infection, attacked his heart. So very quickly, we were forced with navigating care, balancing workforce supporting my mom making decisions. And we we spent about 81 days in the hospital with him. So I'm happy to join and bring some insights and awareness and really just share my experience. Still going through the healing and grief process, I think so. Thanks for having me here.

Karen Batson: 2:09

Of course.

Joanne Archer: 2:10

And Hi, I'm Michelle Curtis, I currently am a product consultant for group product appear similar with Joanne in some ways. I have a history of working in the group life Claims Department for 16 and a half years. And what brings me to this conversation today in my experiences. My dad was unfortunately tragically taken you need father of 12 kids, I have a lot of siblings. However, I am the middle child, and I live closest to my mom. And as she has continued to age, it has been very trying very emotional. And even though dad passed that a long time ago, the grieving never stops. Every time something comes up with my mom's health needing to be there, it brings me right back to that place saying, Dad, I wish you were still here because it's difficult for me to manage mom.

Julie Frick: 3:02

So I am Julie Frick, and I am a manager in the integrated absence space. So it's rather interesting for me to go from, you know, dealing with claimants every day in this situation to becoming someone that, you know, may need some time due to a family member's illness. I have my mother passed away recently. And she went from last year living independently to having a hospital stay that rendered her not able to really walk with a walker anymore. So we had to research to do some long term care options. And then experiencing that in the world of COVID. That gave us a limited ability to see her and then also moving towards end of life care and working with hospice for about the most recent two months with her and navigating, as Joanne mentioned earlier, you know, navigating the balance between your work responsibilities, your family responsibilities, you know, managing your mom.

Joanne Archer: 4:24

Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, when you think about COVID and the impact of you know, I was I was fortunate. It's funny to use that word right in this situation, but I was fortunate enough to be able to sit in my dad's hospital room and work and my mom was able to be there and families of Julie, you know, with with COVID and not being able to have that flexibility. I certainly feel that for you.

Julie Frick: 4:51

Yeah. And in dealing with people at the long term care facility. I had to I felt that I constantly needed to make that point with them where other families had the opportunity to go in and see the facility, meet the nurses, see whoever maybe I didn't have that ability, it did reach a point where, you know, you could visit outside for 20 minutes, but it moved up to a half an hour, once a week. But as family, we didn't have that opportunity. And I tried to bring that to their attention so that they will become more sensitive, understand where we were coming from, when I'd have questions based on, you know, what my mother was telling me what's going on, on a day to day basis in her world wasn't until towards the end, when I was physically present, that I could kind of connect the dots and see what she was talking about. And, you know, I remember saying to her one day, Oh, you were right.

Michelle Curtis: 5:59

I can't imagine going through that, Julie, either with the COVID. I mean, the unknown and hear your mother's care is in your hands, and you're placing her somewhere that you just don't know much about other than what you've researched, and what you've been told by others on the phone. So I can't imagine going through that, you know, my mom is still here. And I didn't I mean, other than seeing her outside of her house, I just cannot imagine having to put my mom somewhere without being there being present,to see and hear what they were, she would be hearing,

Karen Batson: 6:37

You know. And so on the podcast, we've talked a lot about kind of the higher level theme of caregiving. And I really wanted us to have a conversation about elder care, because I do think the topics coming up more and more, especially when you talk about leave programs. But I think there's also an aspect of realizing what your employees are going through you all three of you just provided we just got started, you provided some great examples as to just the effects on you and the weight it has and the emotion. I'm just curious from all of your positions here with group benefits. Have you observed this topic when it comes to your jobs? And have you seen it with employers? Are they addressing eldercare needs? Or at least are their conversations taking place?

Joanne Archer: 7:19

Yeah, you know, what I'll start with is that there has been much changed in the landscape as it relates to family care, right. So Paid Family Care, we've got states that are focusing not just on what we have historically heard, which is maternity paternity benefits, but more now elder care. And I do think the pandemic did bring some light and also some additional challenges to employers and some of our employees have, you know, caring for even a healthy individual during a difficult time making sure that, you know, somebody goes and gets their groceries so they don't have to go out to the store and have potential exposures. So, you know, with the with the state's coming on board with some more paid family care benefits, our customer base is looking at expanding that more so across their company benefits, so that everybody can have a better balance and, and the opportunities to really care for those around them, regardless of age.

Julie Frick: 8:25

And we do see that in our work every day with is Joanne mentioned the expansion of paid parental leave, and have a discussion with our teams with claims teams around that, because we've talked about gee where we're so used to seeing the paid parental for the new parent, in that new parent relationship. But we don't always see it until more recently, on the other end of the spectrum, when it's still that parent child relationship, but now, it's, you know, a flip in the rolls, you know, you're the child taking care of your parent. And, you know, quite arguably, that is just as important, you know, the bond is still there. So the need is really there to support our employees. I think all of our claims specialists are very good at working with those individuals, those claimants that are report the claims and being empathetic and sensitiveto that.

Michelle Curtis: 9:37

Julie, I'm a huge proponent of that I look at it as you know, like the paternity leave for the parent that has not had that child or even if somebody has been adopted, and this is time to bond with this new member of the family, and it is a very joyous occasion as opposed to when someone is very ill and they're sick, and they are going to pass away just through those times, you really want to think about it from keeping your employees productive, with affording them the opportunity to not worry about their work, and to have that time off to schedule the way that they want to do it. Joanne brought up a great point about the paid leaves that are out there. And that is great for the states that have it. But there's many states that don't in my role today, I've been doing a lot of research on financial wellness, well, there's financial wellness has a mental capacity about it. And when you think about somebody grieving before someone even passes away, because they're going through these motions of grief before it actually happens, how productive are they truly being I mean, you got to think about in our business, we need to be there for our claimants, we need to be there for our customers. And if we can't give it all we got, we might not have a great customer centric experience for the person on the other side of us. So I'm a huge proponent, because I believe that we all need that time to still be bonding with our loved ones as they grow older and or near death.

Joanne Archer: 11:17

Yeah, and I think that's an area of education in, you know, having gone through the experiences that we have, but in my mind, prior to my dad becoming ill, eldercare was about caring for somebody sick. And after my dad passed away, eldercare didn't stop, it became taking care of my mom, who was healthy, that was assimilating into this space of being single after 50 years of marriage. And, you know, how do you? How do you do your finances? Or, you know, how do you assume these roles that you didn't have to take on before because you split it with your significant other. And so for me, there's awareness also that just because somebody passes, there's still a need for elder elder care if the other spouse is still alive and having the flexibility that we have today.You know, just the other day, I had to take my mom for an eye appointment. And I probably wouldn't have done that a few years ago. But having the flexibility to schedule I think the work from home environment has helped with that a little bit. But from an employee standpoint, having that sensitivity that it doesn't stop at death is important.

Michelle Curtis: 12:37

Absolutely. And you gave a good example about your mom and being able to take her my mom went for lab work just recently. And then she had a follow up visit. And I got the printout when I went to her house the next time I had the opportunity, I didn't go to that visit. My mom's almost 85 I probably should be going to every one of her visits now. And I said, Well, when the doctor say everything is fine, I say look at the lab results in there shaded in three different ones, three different concerns. But he didn't talk about them with her, but yet they're outside the standard range that's printed on the sheet. I have had to because I didn't make those appointments because of meetings or that appointment. I've had to call them twice this week, once Monday. And once Wednesday Yes, work from home has allowed me to call and leave long messages, but I still haven't gotten an update. So had I just gone to the appointment. I would have been there then more present understand.

Julie Frick: 13:32

Yeah, that's a that's a good point. In before my mother, you know, had a hospitalization she was living pretty independently using a walker and I too had to take her to the doctor's appointments. And let me tell you, she had quite a full calendar of doctor's appointments and I would kind of determine which ones were kind of the more critical for me to be present. And I would choose to take those maybe my brother could take the other ones but in many cases depending on the appointment was I'd have to take the full day off because she was in another state and I would drive down and chances are she would want to have lunch with me either before the appointment or after or something like that. So that was time that I would need to take out of my paid time off. And you know those days can add up. I wouldn't change it for the world. I absolutely that that is my priority but was my priority. But it is in the absence of any type of paid plan for that. That is a choice that we have to make given we have a set amount of time and we do have some flexibility given to work from home options, but it is a choice we all have to make. I do feel fortunate that I work for a company like Lincoln, Financial that I feel supported, I feel supported as an employee, I feel supported as a manager that I can support others going through similar situations to really allow for some flexibility where I can to help make it as easy as I can on the employees. Because it is a difficult time, they are difficult choices that we do have to make.

Michelle Curtis: 15:29

I ultimately made that choice of having to change the line of work, I was working. And because I didn't feel that I could continue to try and lead and develop others with my needs of needing to leave when my mother was taken very ill and hospitalized several times. And I you know, while I want my career to continue, I made a, I made a choice to leave management, which I absolutely loved and adored, because I love to teach people things, and I love to be there with them and help them develop. It's the work that they do. But I can I can help facilitate, I could recommend certain things. And, you know, it wasn't that I didn't have support from my leader, I did have support from my leader, but I was pressuring myself more because it wasn't exactly what I used to do. So.

Karen Batson: 16:16

Just over the last five minutes, the conversation. I'm curious, as people talk about elder care support, like whether that's in the creating a service or looking at in your benefits or providing support from an employer perspective, do you think they're talking about the complexity that comes with it, because it there's, there's the feeling of responsibility, there's the emotional toll it takes on yourself, it's the self care on yourself. There's just so many layers of what you need to do under that one word of elder care. And I'm just curious what you guys think? Are we thinking about it in its complexity? Or do we take that one word and just talk about the

Joanne Archer: 16:53

I think we do a better job talking about it. And one word? I would say that if you've been through it, sometimes it's you learn by your experiences. So I know that having lived through it, you really understand kind of the end to end, right? We always talk about end to end processes, right? You, you, you you see the beginning and you know what comes with it, and that's the you know, being an advocate, coordinating healthcare, participants trying to figure out what the action plans are. And then it goes all the way to end of life and and then the next step and in helping those that are still living. So I think until you've experienced it, it's hard to understand everything that goes into it. And so I know, one of the things that resonated with me is when I would walk through the hospital and see folks there by themselves. And, and and, you know, wanting to help them or advocate for them, or just give them a smile, because I know in just being near my dad, it helped the whole mental state and his will to want to continue to fight and to get out of the hospital and get to that next step. So I I see it through a very personal lens. And I bring that to my team, to my friends. And so I think by continuing to educate, you're gonna see more of that holistic view and not just the word elder care that's tied to sickness and death. And I also again, I continue to draw back to the pandemic year, because you were pretty hard pressed not to turn on the news and see, or even social media Facebook pages, right and seeing folks standing outside like you mentioned Julie standing outside the window, and seeing their loved ones talking to them through the window, but not being able to physically touch them or be there is also helping to raise the awareness of the impacts that hospitalization you know, critical care facilities, all that

Julie Frick: 19:05

i do agree that it is multi layered Karen, because I can see starting in the very beginning, my mother and running all the way to the end of life with hospice but when it started I remember it was a friend of mine that told me about elder services and said, You know, I think there's people you can, you can call there are people you can call where someone will come in to your mother's apartment and help cleaning. They will do you know vacuum her floors, clean her bathroom, do her dishes and all in all that and they can come in like twice a week or they can do things like that they're they're reached a point where a nurse was coming in once a week to set up her medication for the next two weeks. Cute little pill bottle boxes. Because my mother was great about appointments, but I wanted to make sure she was always getting the right medicine every day. So little things like that, that to Joanne's point, you really don't know till you're in it, and you have to start doing the research and seeing what's available. But I didn't know going into it that that even existed till my friend who had gone through it alerted me. So it is an opportunity for us to get better at showing all the different layers of that care, and direct people where to go, whether it's something simple, like Michelle, you may have mentioned, you know, getting a meal for them, or taking them to a doctor's visit if you can, or something, something along those lines or having a nurse or homecare. So there's many, many layers.

Michelle Curtis: 20:58

Julie, it's interesting to talk about the resources that may be out there in the community to help that you experience. And when you talk about keeping the conversation going, like Joanne was talking about. It's not just like the conversation going on with us here today during this podcast, it's with our peers, it's with our family members. But what is even harder is me trying to convince my mom that we should have somebody else coming into her house. She's jus old and ornery and no one's c ming into my house. And I do ha e some siblings, but she alwa s waits for me. And she won' tell them something's wrong, be ause she wants me to do it. nd I'm just like, Oh, goodness gracious.

Julie Frick: 21:47

Well, that Michelle, that's the other part of it. Every it's like, you know, we deal with claims all the time, we always say no two are the same, right. It's like, everyone's situation is different. I mean, it there are things like Do you have any support? Do you have any siblings that can assist you, you know, to support you? Is your parent, local to you? Or do you have to travel to see them? Like, all of that is very, you know, unique to that individual, those set of circumstances that that make it a little different?

Joanne Archer: 22:21

And I think it is a generational? Right theme. it to your point, Michelle, like when my dad was when they were talking to him about hospice, they mentioned in like behavioral health, bringing in some resources, and he's like, I don't need that, you know, I don't want to talk to anybody. And so it is breaking down the barriers and this, you know, kind of bringing forward the resources. And I think with more conversation out there around health care and behavioral health and mental health, it helps break down some of the maybe stigmatism that from a generational perspective that has been associated with that. And I remember after my dad passed, hospice had reached back out to my mom and said, Would you like to join a grief counseling group and the first thing my mom said was, I don't need a group. I don't I don't want to go and talk to anybody. And so then you became I became her grief counselor, but I was grieving too. And I remember saying that to her one day. You know, I can't do this alongside of you. Because I have my own grief that I I need to process I lost my dad, I know you lost her husband, but I lost my dad. And it was after that really hard conversation where she agreed to talk to somebody but not in a group setting. I couldn't I wasn't that good. But you know, I was able to get her that help. But those conversations are tough.

Michelle Curtis: 23:56

Yeah. And it's the, it seems like it's never ending. Like I said, it's been some time since my dad, but like as she continues to age and get sicker and sicker, trying to reinforce the importance of my mental stability, my ability to continue to go on and do my job, a funny little story. I've got a couple brothers around. She wanted me to come take care of a bees nest. I'm like, goodness, gracious, I do the cleaning and some cooking and the balancing of the checkbooks and the shopping and why me but it's just that's one of those things generational and she's just used to having me Your mom is used to having you being there being her partner, especially now, her best friend, you know, they can be your parents, but they are best friends too.

Karen Batson: 24:42

Earlier on. We talked about really flexibility and a couple of places, right? how important that the employer provides that and we just had this conversation of all these other support mechanisms that we need, from your experiences. Are there other elements that employers should be instituting or was there one thing That you wish you had available through your company at that time, or one that you really appreciated, that should possibly be standard that other employers should consider.

Joanne Archer: 25:10

So one of the things that I really appreciated, but I also think that the flexibility came because of the role that I had. But I think it's something that employers should look for employees period, regardless, if they're frontline, whether if they're, you know, management level senior leaders, sales wherever you sit within the organization, and that is flexibility. Understanding that, you know, you may be able to work a couple hours in the morning, and then you take three hours off, but you're working until seven or eight at night. So the flexibility for schedule, design, the flexibility, to not have to be sitting within a cubicle, doing your work to be effective, that you could be sitting in a hospital chair alongside of your dad so that you're able to listen, when the doctor come in, because I agree, Michelle, most times, everything they answer is it's fine. I'm fine. And so if I could tell an employer or recommend it, it's flexibility, and also sensitivity. But sensitivity with reach out in touch points. Like, I can't tell you how much I appreciated my manager sending me a quick text. How are you today? How is your dad today? Is there anything you need? Can I help balance your workload today, and it's just it's another recognition of your performance historically, not what you're going through today. But the retention of your talent and, and, and how important you are to a company. And that's really when it shines through. It's when it gets difficult.

Julie Frick: 26:51

I was fortunate that I did just what Joanne described. Originally, when hospice first started, I would sign on for a couple hours in the morning that would allow me to connect with our team in the morning. So I will keep that connection going with them. I was very honest about what was going on with my mother. And that really helped with I think our relationship and opened a lot of good conversation with them around the subject. And then I would drive an hour, spend the day with her drive an hour home, log back on for a couple hours to take care of any email or work that came through to me during the day. I'm very, very thankful to have that. And in retrospect, if there was a paid component, I would have taken time away and 100%. So that it probably, again, in retrospect wouldn't have been so difficult on myself. Yeah. In terms of you mentioned, taking care of yourself at the same time,

Joanne Archer: 28:05

It would have helped with the guilt, right, Julie? I felt the guilt if I was sitting with my dad or talking with my mom, that I felt guilty. If I wasn't working with my team or talking to my clients, I felt guilty. Yeah, yeah, they'd have helped with that a little bit.

Michelle Curtis: 28:21

Yeah, yeah. And I agree with both Joanne and Julie's experiences and explanations, but you know, what they think would help. Flexibility is key. I had a similar role, as Julie did back when things started to go south with my mom's condition, back with claims and you are on the forefront. And so then to Joanne's point, like it's hard when you're on the forefront of claims that you need to get processes, somebody gets their payments so that they can make their bills, you've got that pressure of being there and approving the claims for your team. And if you're not there's somebody just stand in so you guys both bring up two really great points, the you know, what you felt when you were going through it. And then I go back to Julie's you know, notation about a paid bank. With the work that I do in product. Now we look at other voluntary products, and the market research that I've been seeing coming through are these new benefits that whether or not it's a group insurance benefit companies are providing for elder care leave, right? So like the paternity leave two weeks, four weeks, six weeks of paid time, use it at your discretion. Well, paternity typically what I've heard is you have to use it, you know, right after the child's born, but like with elder care if if they could provide this is another benefit that might help you attract employees retain your employees. They know when it comes time when their parents are growing old that they're not going to have to make a choice between not getting paid or using all their PTO which they're going to need even after they take their bereavement time. Because that time is just so precious.

Karen Batson: 30:05

The last question for you guys is, you know, read a lot of articles about elder care. And quite honestly, the future of how many people will be in that elder bucket with Baby Baby Boomers getting older. Where do you hope the conversation on elder care support goes? What were you hoping to see people having conversation and providing support of each other, knowing more and more people are going to go through what you all have gone through?

Joanne Archer: 30:33

You know, I think awareness, broader definitions about surrounding eldercare sharing of stories, paid expanded time off benefits. You know, I think, Michelle, you just mentioned bereavement to me bereavement as part of elder care. And, you know, organizations have three days, and in three days is is not enough. Oftentimes, you don't get the chance to grieve until weeks later, after you've, you know, settled the estates and whatnot. And so for me, I'm hopeful that we're going to continue the trend and focus on well being through paid time off for loved ones, which is inclusive of elders, your parents could even be an uncle or an aunt or guardian. You know, the definition of parent has certainly changed over over the years. With, with extended families, though, I'm hopeful that that's all included in there as well.

Michelle Curtis: 31:37

Joanne, you kind of summed it up better. So I, you know, will pause there. And like Julie Todd, but you just said everything I would have said,

Julie Frick: 31:46

I would say I would like to see us all be a little more aware of this population and pay a lot more attention to this segment of the population, Joanne mentioned, and I saw it in the long term care facility, people never having anyone to come see them. Yeah. So I think when I think in a future is we need to create ways that we're able to keep that bond that we're able to see them, I'm not necessarily jumping to the conclusion that all their children don't care about them. I don't believe that for a second. But they may be where exactly what we're talking about, they can't get time off from work, they may live in another state and again, don't have the capability of being there as often. So I would like to see just a greater awareness and a greater attention to this population. I was on a call recently around activities and they're like, this is a great activity to teach our children. You know, we can get them involved in they can do that activity. And I and I questioned the person and said, Why can't you do that with elders? Why can't you get them involved in that activity, whether you're in a long term care facility or something like that, and the individuals like, you're right, I never thought of it like that before. And we need to change our thinking to include them more, I think, as a society, we'll get there. But to me that will allow us to make the change that we need to point.

Karen Batson: 33:32

Well, thank you all. I really appreciate your time and sharing your stories and going through this topic. I hope we can do some more content on this because I do think it's an important one. So yes, thank you so much.

Joanne Archer: 33:45

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Michelle Curtis: 33:47

Thank you, Karen, for bringing the conversation to the podcast. And I think this is great that we're doing this.

Julie Frick: 33:52

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much.

Karen Batson: 33:55

Thank you everyone for listening and a special thank you to Joanne Archer Julie Frick and Michelle Curtis for joining me today. We hope you like today's episode and will tell us by rating us sharing the episode or following Lincoln Absence Advisor on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Disclosures: 34:13

The information contained in this podcast is for general use and is not a substitute for the advice of an attorney or your human resource professional. Lincoln Financial Group is the marketing name for Lincoln National Corporation and its affiliates. Affiliates are separately responsible for their own financial and contractual obligations.